Dominion VS Borg

[Hockey]

@cange, I disagree with pretty much all you said.

First where do you read that I said J'm'Hadar takes one day to mature, or that I think the Dominion would breed only one Jem'Hadar at a time? I have not seen any race in all of the Star Trek series, including the Q, whose "kids" mature in one day and are ready for battle. But both the Borg and the Jem'Hadar "kids" are ready much quicker than any Federation, Klingon, Romulan or Cardassian races.

Also, the Ketracel White production would be a major risk for the Dominion. The Borg can go faster to any place using transwarp than the Dominion with only warp. After it is produced it needs to be distributed, again a risk that the supply lines are cut.
The same risk the Borg have if their communication lines are cut and a ship drifts alone.

As fas as the numbers of both go. We don't know. The Daystrom Institute website gives an idea, but we don't know how many their really are. What I did see in one episode of DS9 was that a large part of the control the Dominion exerts over the Gamma Quadrant was through fear. That way you need less soldiers to actually be present.

But for the Fedration to be an alliance, just like the Dominion? No, that would be misuse of the word. The Federation fights as one, they have one army, Starfleet. Same for the Dominion. Despite the fact that different races make up both groups, they are one. An alliance is much more what we saw in World War 2, where the Germans had the Japanese and the Italians as allies, where England had Canada, Russia, the US, Australia, New Zealand and others as their allies. In this case I was referring to an alliance purely made for one occasion, in this case a war. Their only common goal is to defeat a common enemy.
Which is what the Borg have never faced, to my knowledge. All other races never stepped in and said "enough" when the Borg attacked another race. Pretty much like a bully picking on the weaker kids at a school yard, where the weaker kids never band together to defeat the bully.

Your last paragraph I pretty much doubt the evidence. Where is the evidence of what you said? Species 116 had been eluding the Borg for many centuries the episode said. But it was never said they fought them all those centuries, they just staid one step ahead. And they had capabilities not yet seen by the Dominion.
It was also never said that only Arturis ad the ability to create a transwarp ship. It seems to me that if he could do it, so could his race.
However, if the Borg lost the ability to assimilate all of biological the characteristics of a new race, the writers did do a poor job. Because the "welcome message of the Borg" suggest that they have the ability and do so.

[Cange]

[Cange]

by the way the dominion ruled over other race befor the borg was even a treath

[Hockey]

[Cange]

you are right that the time an empire lived is doesnt realy apply to its power but i just meant to say that the borg has been overated...

[Hockey]

[milan]

It's just the way he is, and we love him the way he is. However, your assumptions were a bit far fetched, to me. Why do the Borg get beat, just because some other races join the Dominion in their fight? The Dominion kicks everyone's butt in the Gamma quadrant, a few more star systems more or less won't matter in the war. It's just all the more opportunities for the Borg to assimilate and expand. As you said, they breed faster than anyone if they choose so, because they assimilate. Now in peace time that expansion is self-disciplined, they limit their own number, because empire is not their goal. But in times of war, the more they lose the more they assimilate to compensate. And they don't even use their own resources like the Dominion, there's no need of the White, or components from which they brew the Jems. They just go and "recruit some". Until you show a better method of keeping your ranks intact, we cannot talk about any possible defeat.

[Cange]

the way you talk its like the borg instantly assimilate any race they wish and that the race simply look at the borg and wait for the borg to assimilate them,i agree that alot of race can be assimilated easy,yet alot can fight back,and this process is even better for the dominion.while the dominion dont realy need to make themselve new enemy to fight the borg the borg does...and also like i mentionned earlier this process is also a flaw for the borg,they rely on other race to maintain they'r number...this you can be sure my freind this would be a perfect opportunity for them to contaminate the borg,oh and you forget that while borg troop are busy assimilate small race the dominion troop can move in.

like ive said the borg is a force to be feared,but the borg never did anything to prove they were as powerfull as you say,they have very powerfull ship but other then that,they lack strategy.and i do love the borg,dont get me wrong i just hate ppl overating something,and thats one of the main reason im one sided here...there have been absolutly no reason here to make us believe the borg is the strongest being in the universe...of course starfleet gonna fear them,starfleet count every casualty as a big issue.and picard does fear the borg cause he has been assimilated once so they may sound very scary,but other then that,they didnt do anything to be so scary.yeah they assimilated a bunch of lonely ship,assimilate a few weak system but what majore race did they assimilate or even damaged them...

on the other hand the dominion tranformed the fate of the entire alpha and probably beta quadrant with only a few ship they had sent to protect the cardassian...

[Hockey]

@cange, I have never that races wait for the Borg to assimilate them. I have said that whenever the Borg decide to assimilate a race, much like a bully picking on some kin in high school, they stand idly by and hope they will not be the target. What they could also do is band together and decide for once and for all it has to stop and then actually go out and stop the Borg.
Furthermore, I have never said or implied that the Borg instantly assimilate. But once they attack and the first few people have been assimilated, the process can grow, even at an exponential rate.

I don't agree with the Borg lacking strategy, if they did they would just blindly assimilate any race they came across. But what their strategy is has not been revealed yet by the producers.
Also, I do not recall anyone here saying that the Borg are the strongest being in the universe. The Q and the Douwd are stronger. And the Voth, the Caretaker and the people who pulled the Enterprise to their planet 40.000 light years from federation space close to the centre of the Galaxy in a TNG episode are three races that might be stronger as well.
We have seen many examples of vulnerability of the Borg, and I also believe they are vulnerable. Having said that, I still think they are stronger than the Dominion.

Who did indeed sent a few ships, but started building new ones as well. So their start was a few ships, but in the end there were many.

[Hockey]

[milan]

I just don't see that. Because the Borg are not the conventional enemy, which if you hit hard enough will stay down. Let's say all the empires and fleets converge and even destroy a substantial Borg fleet, which would be a feat in itself with any odds against the Borg. But on the other side of the Galaxy the Borg will just assimilate twice as much as they have lost and with the help of the nice gateway to everywhere whatever it is called, they can drop right on top of the tired and crippled fleet that had just won that hard-earned victory. The only way that the Borg could be stopped would be if they were left with no potential life forms to assimilate, which would mean that in order to defeat the Borg, the improbable allies should wipe out their own galaxy. Even in the worst case scenario where there is a joint fleet of gigantic magnitude bearing down on Unimatrix 1 or any capital that the Borg might possess.... and actually winning the impossible battle... the Borg would just copy all the necessary programs, download them in another part of the galaxy and set up another capital and queen. Or six. Or six hundred. Species 88765 were successful against them only for a while, still having the advantage of surprise. The tide quickly turned. In my opinion the only beings in the known Universe capable to pose a real threat to the Borg are the Q. And they don't interfere.

[Cange]

there goes milan again sayin the borg ship are invulnerable...now he even dare to say that the entire universe grouped together wouldnt be enought for the borg...how suprising.not only this but he come back and say that even if the entire galaxies destroy the borg they will suddently assimilate as much as they used to have in a matter of minute and even have time to come back and wipe out the same very fleet that managed to destroy it wow.anyway its pretty useless to argu here,you guys dont have the same vision of star trek i do

[Hockey]

Cange there is no "you guys" in terms of how we view it. I see it differently than milan does. We all view it differently. That is why we get the opportunity to present our arguments.
And I find milan's arguments of why the Borg would win overly optimistic, and I also find your arguments of why the Dominion would win overly optimistic.

[milan]

And there goes our dear Cange talking completely beside a topic and making a clown out of himself ... yet again. 1. No, I didn't say Borg ships are invulnerable, in fact I didn't even debate Borg ships in my post. 2. In the second part of your post you recount what I stated. Is that supposed to be a counter-argument?
Anyway, Hockey, why would you find my arguments optimistic? Is there a real obstacle to the Borg assimilating in one side of the galaxy what they lost in the other? Or getting them through the transwarp conduits to the heels of the victors? Or to anything else I've said?

[Hockey]

Milan, the reason why I find your prediction overly optimistic is that the Borg can only protect themselves using your method if they destroy the transwarp conduits after they use it. Their opponents can use those conduits just as easy.
And while I agree that they can assimilate other races elsewhere, this costs time. They also need new ships, which they cannot build in a split second. Espacing with a few ships could save them, it does mean a considerable weakening of their army. Especially if their opponents chase them.

But, you do have an excellent point that the Borg need to be annihilated or they will build up again over time and do the same thing all over again.

[Cange]

[Cange]

anyway,tell me exakly the reason,making you believe the dominion would need soo much help to fight againts the borg?

[Hockey]

Cange I think I already did tell. The Borg have larger numbers, transwarp, the ability to assimilate, and adept quickly to weaponsfire.
The Dominion essentially consists of three races, not including the enslaved ones, being the Founders, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar. Of those races the Founders don't seem to do much, so all the work is done by the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar. The Jem'Hadar don't trust the Vorta, and there is a lot of animosity between them.

I see the Borg attacking the Dominion, become impervious to their weapons fire, assimilate a few ships and then move on to the Founders homeworld. They would amass a large number of ships and destroy the planet, much like Species 8472 destroyed Borg planets.

[milan]

@ Cange: the Borg ships don't have to be invulnerable to defeat a combined fleet of all the rest. They just have to be as hard to destroy as they usually are. You yourself said that a whole fleet of Jem ships against one Borg cube would be a fair fight. Furthermore, I'm saying that the supposed allies, howerer many they might be, still have a limited number of ships, due to their racial spread and financial background. There are just so many battleships that one race can throw into battle. And if they are destroyed, they would be hard pressed to send another wave of reinforcements. With the Borg that is not a problem. They are not limited by their own racial boundaries. You wipe out half the Borg population in the Universe, in a few days they can have it right back. Because they don't have to raise a new generation of their offspring. They just harvest them. You said you liked great-scaled war, well this is the greatest scale possible. You have races that are biologically limited in numbers against one race that is virtually limitless, if they choose to be so. Victory belongs to the one that outlives the others. Limitless outlives the limited. That's a logical conclusion.

[Cange]

[Hockey]

@Cange, I find your view of the discussion very one sided. Apparently the Borg are flawed and absolutely nothing can be found that is less good about the Dominion.

You stated that the show has shown us that the Borg control less territory than the Dominion, when exactly was that shown? On the internet there are several maps to be found of Star Trek space and they alternate in the size of space both races control, some give the Borg more space, others the Dominion.
Second, other races do not assimilate. Only the Borg do. Other races might conques, but they don't assimilate. Not even technology. Assimilation of a race also implies all knowledge of their technology, whereas simply conquering them means that you do not have immediate knowledge of their technology, but it can be learned. Assimilation is both their strength and weakness. Because they assimilate their ranks grow quickly, bot no one has eternal life, so what happens if Borg start dying off. You cannot assimilate all races, because who will replenish their ranks once all have died of old age, to just give an example.

The Dominion can kamikaze into ships, which gives them a strong advantage, but can they crash enough ships and do enough damage. It makes them much more dangerous than Starfleet who prefer to stay alive. However, unlike you said, the Borg do not consist of three races.

However, you are right, the Founders do a lot more than I said. I stand corrected. Although I still question whether the Founders would actually fight. having said that, there remains the issue of the animosity between the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta. It is not meaningless, what if the animosity is so great that they start to fight each other? That would not be very good in battle, now would it?

In the end, I still think that a combined group of both Dominion and all other races will defeat the Borg. They are not unbeatable.

[Cange]

have you ever read the book called,Sun Tzu the art of war?

i never meant to say the borg was weak,far from it,the borg do have potential to be a very big treath,the thing is that they lack strategy.most of what they do is in complet contradiction to the war strategy that should be use to be more effective from what weve seen.and the main reason for this is that they lack the most important rules of war and it is to never underestimate your enemy,and from what ive seen the borg has no ally,only enemy.on the other hand if you've followed the dominion campain on the alpha quadrant,its was almost flawless,every strategy was being used and used to its full extant,and that is one of the major point of the dominion on the borg,while both are very powerfull the dominion never underestimate any race even as weak as they can be.

as for the assimilation process you are right only the borg do such a thing,but then again the problem to this process is that in the end it end up being used by borg,and borg sometime lack the imagination to use a technology right.
just a stupid example here,did you ever see a drone run??no,too overconfident.
the borg do assimilate everything but in the end they dont because it stay become borg.

your scenario about all race turnin on the borg could be pretty possible since the pretty much dominion style to make they'r enemy waste they'r ressource befor moving in,and it would be pretty much dominion style to use other race and make them waste they'r force on the borg,one thing the borg would never be able to do.

[Hockey]

Not entirely related to this discussion, but a few days ago it hit me that the Voth and the Dominion have something in common.
Both were space faring many millenia ago, the Voth even millions of years ago. But the speed of thecnological development for both has been slower than humans have developed.

If either would want to conquer the Galaxy they should do it before other races have surpassed them technologically.

[Cange]

the dominion would have if it wasnt from the prophet,and now they have odo teaching them to trust the solid and blablabla

[milan]

Ok, at first I said I am not going to read Cange's long letter, let him battle with Hockey ) but now that I read it... "The Borg never run cuz they are over-confident"... and you start with Sun Tzu to make it seem deeper? And the Dominion never under-estimates any race?
Ok let's see: the Dominion under-estimated the Cardassians and they got a big asskick from Damar. DAMAR!! Let's face it, he was only a faceless Lieutenant to Gul Dukat, then when he got power he got it cuz the Dominion thought he would be a puppet, easy to control, plus he was an alcoholic. And he still outmaneuvered the Dominion and got the final Cardassian move in motion. So much for the Dominion never under-estimating anyone. And of course the list could continue, how many times did we see that smug smile disappear from Weyoun's face?
And funny you should bring out the art of warfare, pff man... let's see: who were the most efficient soldiers of our history? Well the Romans were right there on the top, and do you know why? Because of their "drone" tactics. A whole legion of the same kind of soldiers, same equipped, same disciplined, working as one big unit. No one could stand against them. No scheme, no witty chief, no maneuvering general, no one. Even the time's finest, the Greeks were swept away by them. They were just drones. Yes. By the thousands, doing the same thing: rolling upon you like a bulldozer. Running was never their tactic either. JUst marching down on the enemy.
While you saying that the Borg lack the imagination to use the technology right is just something you made up, completely untrue, since, as we have stated so many times, the assimilation process gives them full knowledge of how to use the conquered race's technology. That's that. You don't get more imaginative than the guys who thought up that piece of technology. Oh, plus they mix all to their own technology, so they always even upgrade it.
And when you rolled your eyes on my claim that the Borg can but don't want to conquer everybody like the maniac children called the Founders, on what did you base that denial of facts? I based my statement on the Borg credo: what they want is to achieve perfection. (see the Omega-worship). You just say : oh yes they would conquer, believe me cuz I'm telling you. Oh HELL THEY WOULD! You say that they have no MERCY? Cruelty, mercy, these are feelings. The Borg have no feelings. Not to each other, not to outsiders. What they want to do they do, what they don't they don't. Again, they are not like the Founders who want to see everyone groveling at their slimy feet. The Borg couldn't care less. Cuz they are MATURE!