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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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 Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:56 pm |
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I know accidents might happen but it doesn't give a woman the right to kill. I am for women's right but not to murder an innocent baby. Yes it is baby rather anyone believes it or not.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:34 pm |
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^ So if you believe that way, don't use it. It's perfectly simple.
But don't go telling the girl who was raped last night that *she* can't get the pill. Because, honestly, you don't know what's going through her head and heart.
I was raped and beaten when I was 19. If I'd gotten pregnant, I guarantee you I would have killed myself.
Is that the solution you'd prefer?
Things are rarely black & white.
Last edited by teya on Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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harrykims#1fan
Fan Girl Muskateer
Joined: 08 Feb 2002
Posts: 2916
Location: Leicester UK
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| Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:00 pm |
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The morning after pill is a good option, and if any supermarket decides to stock it, it would be a lot easier for girls / women who wish to use it because it would be available.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:19 pm |
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| teya wrote: | ^ So if you believe that way, don't use it. It's perfectly simple.
But don't go telling the girl who was raped last night that *she* can't get the pill. Because, honestly, you don't know what's going through her head and heart.
I was raped and beaten when I was 19. If I'd gotten pregnant, I guarantee you I would have killed myself.
Is that the solution you'd prefer?
Things are rarely black & white. |
It's nice to see that you'd rather have someone else killed, than having to deal with your own problems.
There's no excuse for abortion, adoption is always avalible.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:38 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | teya wrote: | ^ So if you believe that way, don't use it. It's perfectly simple.
But don't go telling the girl who was raped last night that *she* can't get the pill. Because, honestly, you don't know what's going through her head and heart.
I was raped and beaten when I was 19. If I'd gotten pregnant, I guarantee you I would have killed myself.
Is that the solution you'd prefer?
Things are rarely black & white. |
It's nice to see that you'd rather have someone else killed, than having to deal with your own problems.
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That was way out of line. You're out of World News for a week, and that's a forum warning. I don't care what your belief on abortion is, if you can't handle yourself better, then you need definately need to work on that during your break.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:04 pm |
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Teya ,
I was raped too when I was 16 by my ex-boyfriend. I didn't kill my baby... Yeah he did though by pushing me in the stomach... I know what went through my mind when I was raped and found out I was pregnant.
I chose the smart thing to do cause I know it was not my baby's fault and I was not going to punish him for the father's sins. I am not trying to be mean here so don't think I am.
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Tyvek
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Jul 2001
Posts: 2821
Location: Mississippi, USA
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| Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:54 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Tyvek wrote: | | Puck wrote: | I just love how the word child has become interchangeable with words like accident, *beep*, etc....
But yes, I'm tending to go with the whole falling into the sea thing. I think for the most part LightningBoy has it perfect. Do I care if it's state policy? No, not really, I don't think that automatically makes it right. |
Yes but you've also got to remember that in the country we live, unborn chldren are not people until they come out of the birth canal. I mean abortion is legal, so I don't see what the fuss is. I mean I seriously don't, it is your right to choose that a child can live or die, even if your contraception failed... you took the risk, it never goes away. But thats OK... the thing that makes me mad is that Scott Peterson got jailtime for his unborn son... I don't see why, all he did was kill his wife, and a fetus, who could have been aborted.... |
I really hope that entire post was a joke. It was one of the most horrible posts I've ever read... |
apparently you missed the sarcasm... yes I pointed out a double standard... and yes I am Pro-Life... This guy saw my point though... sorry you didn't.
| Leo Wyatt wrote: | | You say abortion is legal but it doesn't make it morally right. Women should use some common sense and not to spread their legs if they don't want to have a baby. And for rape victims, well their is adoption. Cause there are married people who is dying to raise a child. People say there are no other options but I disagree strongly cause there is. |
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:07 am |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: |
I chose the smart thing to do cause I know it was not my baby's fault and I was not going to punish him for the father's sins. I am not trying to be mean here so don't think I am. |
I'll take you at your word on motivation, but I'm not going to make *value* judgements, like what is right and what is wrong. The circumstances were different.
Which is exactly my point. The law has to allow for worst-case-scenarios. And making value judgements on people doesn't help that when you don't know what that woman's life was like.
Years after my own experience, I worked as a rape crisis counselor in a college town. I was in the ER with women after they were raped--the helping hand through the initial aftermath. I provided counseling in the weeks and months afterwards. We did this through the local Planned Parenthood.
Now, this PP didn't have abortion services and emergency contraceptives didn't exist then. Yet, the local RTL organization picketed us, just the same. So there were days I'd have to escort a *rape* victim, who simply in for counseling through a gauntlet of protesters who made an *assumption* and chanted foul words at her over and over and over--implying to her that she was responsible for the rape. Ya know, that she'd *asked* for it, that she should have kept her legs together. It was appalling. And it gave me a permanent distaste for the RTL movement.
Thing is, emergency contraceptives are not abortifacients. They simply prevent implantation of the fetus--*if* one exists. You don't even know if you're pregnant when you take 'em. And they are *legal*.
I believe in conscience clauses for health-care workers. Those are when a professional chooses to opt out of a procedure for religious or ethical reasons. A nurse has a right, IMO, not to deliver what could be a fatal dose of morphine to a terminal patient. An OB-GYN has the right not to do a circumcision or an abortion. A medical student has the right to opt out of labs involving live animals. (Yes, despite what you hear from the RTL groups, it's not only Christians who make these choices, and it's not only abortion that's the issue).
But, in all those cases, there must be alternatives available to the patient, so that she is able to get the care she needs and chooses from someone else. That is the key--freedom of choice for all involved.
When a company has the lock on local pharmacies, then that company needs to provide any medication that community needs. Because otherwise the patient has no access to legal and current standards of medical care.
Would you advocate withholding any other drug just because the company says "we're not gonna stock it"? What of a transplant patient who can't get meds because Walmart, for example, doesn't want to provide the high-cost drugs because there's no profit in those? Does the company's right to make a profit come before the patient's need for those meds?
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charlie
American Soldier
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 598
Location: In The United States
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| Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:57 pm |
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We all could go around in circles on this subject and we're not going to agree. Deb is right no offense. We all got different views on it and noone is going to win th debate cause we all got different opinions. And, we collide .
Women don't have the right to play God and take a life into their own hands. This world has gone cold and it is only going to get worse.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:08 pm |
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That's an interesting post Charlie.
We've all got different views and we're not going to agree... Sounds like "Stop wasting your time expressing your opinion because no one is gonna agree with you."
Then you express your own opinion to drive the point home.
I can take the hint folks. The only opinions wanted on this board are those that agree with the majority. And since I'm a minority of one from the looks of things, it's obviously pointless to continue. Because the only responses I'm gonna get are "You're wrong."
I thought this was a discussion board, which involves give and take from either side. I'm not trying to *change* opinions, simply showing another side to the argument. To any argument.
But I either get "you're wrong" with no explanation of why or "I dont' want to talk about it anymore." Which isn't exaclty the way to have a discussion.
So, have fun folks, much luck in all you do. See ya round the net.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:01 pm |
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Noone said that you couldn't discuss it. People get mad when they disagree with each other. So what. We wasn't meant to agree. Debate is debate. It is not about winning it either. 
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:02 pm |
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Don't worry, Teya. I agree with you on this completely. I am a strong advocate for letting the women do what they feel is right to them. You know, humans aren't the only creatures on this planet who have "abortions" so to speak. While the animal kingdom doesn't have the medical knowledge to do them, if the mother feels that there is no point in having the babies because the pack she is with will harm them, or she is sick and can't take care of them so they'll starve or become prey, the mother will kill them to prevent suffering.
Of course, this is different from people who simply do not want to have the baby but it is a valid point that even animals will kill the babies if they feel their lives will be horrible. So that defends one cause, IMO.
I particularly liked this argument:
| teya wrote: | When a company has the lock on local pharmacies, then that company needs to provide any medication that community needs. Because otherwise the patient has no access to legal and current standards of medical care.
Would you advocate withholding any other drug just because the company says "we're not gonna stock it"? What of a transplant patient who can't get meds because Walmart, for example, doesn't want to provide the high-cost drugs because there's no profit in those? Does the company's right to make a profit come before the patient's need for those meds? |
If the coporation has the right to pick and choose what they stock, then what about in this situation? The patient could die simply because there wasn't a profit in it. Now, doesn't that fit into the same category you all have been placing abortion; cold and heartless? Why, yes! I think it does!
This pill judge gives people a little extra assurance incase their contraceptive fails. You're honestly going to tell me that the 2 cells, the egg and the sperm, which probably have barely began to form new cells is a living, concious being that can feel pain? No. It's an egg and a sperm, it feels nothing at that point. It doesn't have a heart, it doesn't have a pulse, it doesn't have any organs. It's 2 maybe at the most like 10 cells.
And teya, I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you. You people want to know cold? The fact that there are people willing to rape young women is cold, not the pill. I find it great how teya took that experience and decided to use it to help other victims get through their own problems. You're a good person, teya.
Last edited by Valathous on Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:38 pm |
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It doesn't matter how you look at it. Women don't have the right to kill. Simple as that.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:15 pm |
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I actually do think it's a good idea for Wal Mart to stock morning after pills... making a government regulation...that's kind of extreme, I guess, but I still support it. It could save someone from having an abortion--and I do see a big difference between having an abortion and using this pill. Five days after an abortion we're talking cells. Just cells. Cells which happen to be able to match and will eventually form a child. While I don't like the idea of abortion at all (personal dislike, not a legislative dislike), I think the pill is a very good alternative--not that other methods to prevent pregnancy shouldn't be used, but it's a far better last-ditch effort.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:37 pm |
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| charlie wrote: | We all could go around in circles on this subject and we're not going to agree. Deb is right no offense. We all got different views on it and noone is going to win th debate cause we all got different opinions. And, we collide .
Women don't have the right to play God and take a life into their own hands. This world has gone cold and it is only going to get worse. |
Guess what? No she's not. That's her opinion. Just like teya isn't right. No one's opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I believe that's a World News rule isn't it? We are debating against each other with opinions not facts. No one is right.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:01 pm |
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There is no right or wrong. Deb's opinion is motivated on the pro life side and religious driven, where Teya's is on the pro choice side and perhaps driven from her rape experience and experience helping others. Both sides have pros and cons.
Deb is saying how it is killing a baby, which it would after the third trimester, and that would be sick. But were only talking about a morning after pill here! Perhaps the RU486 pill would be killing a very complex combination of cells forming a feotus, but to say it's killing a innocent baby is ridiculous. You don't have a baby the instant after fertilization. I also sense a motion of people who do believe in pro life thinking the baby's life is above and more important than the mothers. I'm curious to know why.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:32 pm |
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I find it interesting that the Fed is saying to pahrmacies "You guys make sure the abortion pill is available".
Why aren't they telling pharmaceuticals, "You guys make a 100% fool-proof contraceptive".
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:30 am |
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Probably because they're already trying?
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:49 am |
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^They are highly dependant on their perfect use. If they are not used 100% correctly then that reduces their effectiveness. If they were always used 100% correctly, their effectiveness is very, very near 100%.
These days though companys make more money from products like viagra than the contraceptive pill. It's all about money and profit.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:01 am |
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I was raped too and got pregnant but I wasn't going to kill my baby . I wasn't going to punish the baby of the sin of the father. There are better options than abortion. Women do abortions for selfish reasons.
They don't think about a couple that could raise the baby. People say adoption takes too long it depends on the lawyer and the state that you live in. There are ways to get it done.
Yeah my baby was killed by my ex but at least I have a clear conscience knowing I didn't kill. He beat me and took my baby's life.
I was 16 at the time of my rape.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:24 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | ^They are highly dependant on their perfect use. If they are not used 100% correctly then that reduces their effectiveness. If they were always used 100% correctly, their effectiveness is very, very near 100%.
These days though companys make more money from products like viagra than the contraceptive pill. It's all about money and profit. |
That doesn't explain why more-effective treatments from overseas have been banned in the US.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:30 pm |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: | I was raped too and got pregnant but I wasn't going to kill my baby . I wasn't going to punish the baby of the sin of the father. There are better options than abortion. Women do abortions for selfish reasons.
They don't think about a couple that could raise the baby. People say adoption takes too long it depends on the lawyer and the state that you live in. There are ways to get it done.
Yeah my baby was killed by my ex but at least I have a clear conscience knowing I didn't kill. He beat me and took my baby's life.
I was 16 at the time of my rape. |
Women aren't always "selfish" when they have an abortion. A lot of them are scared out of their minds. I'm not going to say some girl was selfish because she was terrified of what her parents would do, or what the father would do, or something like that. Maybe in some respect that is selfish, but I'm not going to point to some girl who was just young and scared and say "You selfish blankity blank murderer." Women like that need help, not condemnation.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:35 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | Leo Wyatt wrote: | I was raped too and got pregnant but I wasn't going to kill my baby . I wasn't going to punish the baby of the sin of the father. There are better options than abortion. Women do abortions for selfish reasons.
They don't think about a couple that could raise the baby. People say adoption takes too long it depends on the lawyer and the state that you live in. There are ways to get it done.
Yeah my baby was killed by my ex but at least I have a clear conscience knowing I didn't kill. He beat me and took my baby's life.
I was 16 at the time of my rape. |
Women aren't always "selfish" when they have an abortion. A lot of them are scared out of their minds. I'm not going to say some girl was selfish because she was terrified of what her parents would do, or what the father would do, or something like that. Maybe in some respect that is selfish, but I'm not going to point to some girl who was just young and scared and say "You selfish blankity blank murderer." Women like that need help, not condemnation. |
Well said. I'll have to agree that some abortions are from fear of what others may/would/could say about the pregnancy. So to like Exalya said, condemn them when help is what they need is wrong.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 pm |
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Well, over here you can also buy morning-after pills at a drugstore without perscription, so I think it's a good idea. It lowers the threshold for women, they don't need to go to the doc first. I think it's a good idea that it's in the stores.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:45 pm |
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It's good that Walmart are being told what to do for once. It really pissed me off that a load of good bands had to change their album covers because the picture constrasted with what Walmart thinks should be on a cover.
The morning after pill is hardly an abortion anyway. It stops a cluster of about 16 cells attaching to a women. Loads of women miscarry at 1 or 2 weeks pregnant and don't even notice, so it's not even that unnatural
And if Walmart care so much about children, why don't they make all their stock fairtrade?
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