| Author |
Message |
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
 Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:19 pm |
|
| harrykims#1fan wrote: | | TrekkieMage wrote: |
She was a Mary Sue, and you can only really go so far with that. Her character had no depth (although she could have had a lot if they'd played their cards right at the begining). They really didn't have much else they could do with her. |
*claps*at last someone said something about kes that was right, she was a sue who in the end died to save the ship (enhancing her "speshulness")..Sue trait: Dieing to save people/Havin Special Powers
in some episodes she was a half decent character in others she was just a poor character who had little development
-That is all |
Kes was no Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character which the writer fancies and who is the center of all stories the writer comes up with. If Voyager ever had a Mary Sue, then Seven Of Nine did fit more in that cathegory than Kes.
Kes didn't die in any episode, she did leave in a badly written story which was the result of TIIC:s decision to get rid of her very quickly but she didn't die.
Kes had special powers but so had also Deanna Troi.
Kes is a much better and more interesting character than most of the Star Trek characters. When it comes to development, she had definitely more development than characters like Kim who always was "young, green ensign Kim" (no offence to Kim who is actually better in the books but so is also Kes).
|
|
|
TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
|
| Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:03 pm |
|
An explanation that I found of a Mary Sue:
| Quote: | | Mary Sue, as this archetype became known, was at first any brilliant, beautiful young Starfleet officer who joined the Enterprise crew to be the center of attention, set everything right, make off with the main male canon character's heart (or several of them!), and/or die dramatically in someone's arms. |
You're right about the center of attention thing. But, when did Kes ever do anything wrong? She was beautiful, smart, everyone loved her, she had no emotional baggage, she had men falling all over her (the EMH, Tom, and Neelix) and when she died she saved the ship and everyone was teary. She also suffered extreme hardships at the begining of the series that magically went away and she became the happy bubbly Kes that everyone knows now.
I'm not saying she was a bad character. She was a good character, she had great potential. But it was ruined.
|
|
|
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
| Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:27 pm |
|
| TrekkieMage wrote: | An explanation that I found of a Mary Sue:
| Quote: | | Mary Sue, as this archetype became known, was at first any brilliant, beautiful young Starfleet officer who joined the Enterprise crew to be the center of attention, set everything right, make off with the main male canon character's heart (or several of them!), and/or die dramatically in someone's arms. |
You're right about the center of attention thing. But, when did Kes ever do anything wrong? She was beautiful, smart, everyone loved her, she had no emotional baggage, she had men falling all over her (the EMH, Tom, and Neelix) and when she died she saved the ship and everyone was teary. She also suffered extreme hardships at the begining of the series that magically went away and she became the happy bubbly Kes that everyone knows now.
I'm not saying she was a bad character. She was a good character, she had great potential. But it was ruined. |
I still can't see any "Mary Sue" factor when it comes to Kes and I don't understand why she would have been "ruined" during the first three seasons. They did ruin the character in crappy episodes like "The Gift" and "Fury" but that's another story.
As for being nice, beautiful, smart (which are the reasons for me to like her) and liked by a lot of people on the ship I don't find it worse than for characters like Deanna Troi, Jadzia Dax or in some cases B'Elanna Torres (who became tame very quickly). As for her romances, OK Tom had a crush on her and Neelix was probably in love with her while The Doc is a program with very little of love feelings (except maybe for Denara Pel).
Compare that to Seven, who everybody did seem to fall in love with during season 4-7, even the first officer for no reason at all and her ability to save the ship an all occasions with her Borg probes and Borg knowledge, she could fix anything from the warp engines to Janeway's malfunctioning hairdryer and everybody were sooooo happy to have a potential enemy (a Borg) with access to all important systems on the ship.
I do find a more suitable Mary Sue there.
As for the criticizm to Kes for saving the ship, it looks like it's impossible to please them all. Kes saving the ship and having an important role is not good, Kes being a background character is not good either. I do agree that she could have been the main character in more episodes than she were but when she was given a chance to shine, then she was great.
And she didn't die in any episode.
|
|
|
TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
|
| Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:15 pm |
|
She had potential to be a really deep character with her encounter with the Kazon. Instead it was never brought up after episode 1.
| Quote: |
As for being nice, beautiful, smart (which are the reasons for me to like her) and liked by a lot of people on the ship I don't find it worse than for characters like Deanna Troi, Jadzia Dax or in some cases B'Elanna Torres (who became tame very quickly). |
But they all had realistic personality flaws. I know very little about Troi and Dax, but if I remember correctly they've both had to make very difficult decisions and 'gotten their hands dirty' in terms of their work. They never show Kes having any sort of difficulties seeing the wonded after a Voyager attack. For someone who lived most of her life in a sheltered underground world, I would think that would be very shocking. And Torres, throughout the series she had personal issues. Even in season 7 she was struggling with her Klingon half.
Seven saved the ship a lot, yes. But she didn't understand human behavior. That's what made her unique. She developed slowly into a human being and struggled with small aspects humanity. Kes just suddenly understood every facet of human life and was able to help everyone talk through it. Seven also tried to destroy Voyager more than a few times.
She didn't die, but she acsended to a higher form of life and slingshoted Voyager 10,000 light years in the process, cutting 10 years of their trip and magically getting them past the worst part of Borg space. A brilliant, over the top, heroic death. It could have been more subtle or heartwrenching without being so cheesy.
She wasn't a bad character. She was just poorly developed and had so much more potential than she was given.
|
|
|
teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
|
| Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:01 pm |
|
| TrekkieMage wrote: | | She had potential to be a really deep character with her encounter with the Kazon. Instead it was never brought up after episode 1. |
They had another huge opportunity with her--unfortunately I know it wouldn't have flown with Lynx. *grins* *waves to Lynx*
With a character whose lifespan is so short, they had the opportunity to show the entire aging process accelerated. And, as anyone who's ever been there as someone dies knows, that impacts greatly on the lives of the people around them.
The Doc would be trying to find some way to "fix" her--which echoes the issue we face in medicine today with the elderly: when do we simply let nature take its course? How much is too much intervention? And to the friends and family, of course, it's hard to let go. Believe me, I know--I lost my father and my SO within 2 years.
There's so much material there, and it would have given Lien a lot to work with--and a means of proving herself as an actor beyond being just a pretty, sweet assistant to the Doctor. She did a credible job in "Warlord"--she has such a wonderful malevolent purr!
BTW, much as I loved Seven (easily my favorite character on the show), I would have liked her transition to be tougher, too. They never dealt with how dependent she was on technology. Logically, long stretches away from the ship (as in Workforce) would have been extremely problematic for her as she needed to regenerate.
Ah, well. Hindsight is always 20/20. In the thick of a TV production schedule with execs above demanding that the bottom line comes first, the job is much harder. 
-------signature-------
Resume your disorder.
|
|
|
XxSuperstarxX
Crewman
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 4
Location: my house.
|
| Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:03 am |
|
Kes was ok but I agree with what some said earlyier she didn't have much depth, think about it this way what was he point of her being on voyager she neverly really had a point in being their, she was just their to say a few lines, crack a joke, then go some where else.
|
|
|
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
| Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:30 pm |
|
I can agree in some of the criticizm here, about Kes having difficulties seeing the wounded after a Voyager attack and maybe some more deep thinking from her side about leving home and joining the Voyager crew and a more realistic break-up with Neelix. But despite that, she wasn't worse than any of the other Voyager characters in that aspect, especially not compared to Harry Kim. She was a great character with great potential and there were no acceptable reasons for suddenly dumping the character (even if they really had to add Seven to the show).
I disagree with the death scenario mentioned by Teya for the same reasons as Teya might want it in the series. I've had enough of death and misery in my own life, thank you and it might just be great to not have it shoved in my face when it comes to one of my favorite escapes from reality  and my favorite Voyager character.
Besides that, I can see the practical problems here with make-up and such.
I must also state that I find Kes a character with more depth than many Star Trek characters in all the different series. I could easily come up with 10-12 main characters which were more without depth than Kes.
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
