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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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 Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:13 pm Sept. 11 Firefighters' Documents Released |
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Sept. 11 Firefighters' Documents Released
Friday, August 12, 2005
NEW YORK � The Fire Department of New York (search) on Friday made public thousands of pages of oral histories recorded by firefighters on Sept. 11, 2001, and hours of radio transmissions, as family members spoke out on reopening the investigation after reports of omissions to the Sept. 11 commission's report.
Firefighter Kirk Long, whose Engine 1 was sent to the World Trade Center's (search) north tower � the first to be hit by a plane and the second to collapse � described rushing into the tower as people were making their way out.
"I was watching every person coming down, looked at their face, just to make them happy that they were getting out and we were going in, and everything was OK," Long said in his oral history.
Long said he heard the north tower shake and thought something in the basement had exploded.
"At that time I never knew that the south tower had gone down," he said.
Some families and other critics of the city's response were hoping the documents would help them challenge the finding that many firefighters in the north tower heard but ignored an order to evacuate after the south tower collapsed at 9:59 a.m.
At least one fire lieutenant quoted in the oral histories said he heard the call and saw his colleagues leaving.
Fire Lt. Gregg Hansson, whose Engine 24 (search) was called at 8:47 a.m. � one minute after the first plane crash � described hearing the call to evacuate while he was on the 35th floor of the north tower.
"I was in the vicinity of the battalion chief, who was on the command channel, when I heard a mayday given over the command channel to evacuate the building," Hansson said in his oral history. "He started to tell everyone to evacuate, and I did also. I saw all the units get up, everybody got their gear, everybody started for the staircases to evacuate."
Compelled by a lawsuit filed by The New York Times, the department made public 15 hours of radio transmissions and more than 500 oral histories describing the rush to the World Trade Center, which saved an unknown number of civilians and cost 343 firefighters their lives. In all, 1,749 people died in the twin towers' collapse.
At least 450 relatives of dead firefighters have asked for copies of the documents, and they received them by express mail Friday, the fire department said.
Independent investigations with access to the documents have described major flaws in the city's response to the attack, including the emergency radios malfunctioning, police and firefighters not working together and vital messages going unheard.
A reading of some of the 12,000 pages of transcripts made the day's drama clear.
Firefighter Long described leaving the north tower and being helped by another firefighter to a building nearby that had some clean air.
"There was a lot of mothers and babies there," he said. "I was ready to leave. They were a little shook up because I was covered up with all this dust. I was leaving and they started to cry. They didn't want me to go without them. So I stayed for maybe 10 or 15 minutes until it cleared up a little bit. Then I walked them over to the west side, where there were boats and fresh air."
Another firefighter, Patrick Martin, said that after the south tower had collapsed and before the north tower came down, his lieutenant instructed him to go on a boat that was taking people to hospitals across the Hudson River.
"I told him I wasn't leaving," Martin said. "We were still missing one guy."
The city had withheld the material, claiming the release would violate firefighters' privacy and jeopardize the prosecution of Zacarias Moussaoui, who ultimately pleaded guilty to conspiring with the Sept. 11 hijackers.
Families of victims expressed concern over reports that the Sept. 11 commission left out information on the hijackers before the attacks.
The panel reportedly was told about "Able Danger," a military intelligence unit that had identified Mohamed Atta and other hijackers a year before the attacks, but that information was not in the report, according to U.S. Rep. Curt Weldon (search), R-Pa., a champion of integrated intelligence-sharing among U.S. agencies.
�It compromises the integrity of the commission,� said Carol Ashley, whose daughter was killed. �It brings into question what else was left out of the commission report,� she told FOX News.
Mindy Kleinberg, who lost her husband in Sept. 11, attacks, agreed: "We fought very hard to have that commission put into place. We wanted to see that the mistakes that were made were fixed. And now four years later while we are a nation at war and a nation under threat, we are no closer to knowing the truth about 9-11 or to fixing the problems that are out there. ...
"If you keep leaving these people in their jobs, who fail to do their jobs � then we cannot expect to be any better off today than we were four years ago.�
Added Ashley: "There are other things that seem to be missing [from the report]. We don�t have the whole story � this is something that is apparent.�
In March, the state's highest court ordered the city to release the oral histories and radio transmissions but said the city could edit out potentially painful and embarrassing portions.
In another oral history, fire Lt. Howard Hahn described using his cell phone that day but said his fire department radio was barely functioning.
"I was able to get through, but the transmissions was very hard," Hahn said. It was very hard to control. You're basically doing your own show."
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:00 am |
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I really don't know what to say about this. I think its good to know, and I also think that we have a right to know, and the families of the victims have a right to know, but I'm not sure if this is the time. Some wounds are just beginning to heal, and this could, quite possibly rip them open again.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:11 pm |
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I think this is perfect timing. It's not too late where people have completely forgotten, but are starting to pretty much forget it. I think it's good that these have been released. It reminds us what happened.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:06 pm |
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Who's forgetting? Who could forget? I was sitting on the table arguing with my mother over a pair of earings when the first tower was hit. I was in 6th grade. I remember everything that happened that day. Can you honestly tell me you don't?
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:17 pm |
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The people who complain about how long they have to wait at the airport for security reasons are forgetting. The people who complain about the lines at borders are forgetting. Catching the drift?
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Classified
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:19 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | The people who complain about how long they have to wait at the airport for security reasons are forgetting. The people who complain about the lines at borders are forgetting. Catching the drift? |
Exactly. Michael Moore and other far-left whackos have forgotton as well.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: New York
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:28 pm |
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Yes, I suppose the fact that he made a "documentary" on the subject just goes to show his absent mindedness.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:29 pm |
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I take so much offense to that statement, and I think you knew I would.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:35 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Yes, I suppose the fact that he made a "documentary" on the subject just goes to show his absent mindedness. |
I don't mean forgetting the day, but forgetting what it MEANT and who the enemy is. They simply forget it with Iraq, etc.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:36 pm |
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Ah, I see.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:37 pm |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | I take so much offense to that statement, and I think you knew I would. |
Goodness, watch what you say. If you are responding to RM, you've just called yourself a "whacko".
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:41 pm |
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I am infact responding to RM because I am one of those said "far left 'whacko'"s. I see nothing wrong with it and I do not appreciate it, and if he's going to call me names I'm going to call him names.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:43 pm |
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No, you won't, 
RM wasn't addressing you, he was making a general statement. You choosing to identify with those he mentioned? Up to you.
And you are a wacko? Good to know, that just means nearly anything you say has to be taken and analyzed from every angle before it can be taken seriously. I mean, come on, look up "wacko".
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:45 pm |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | I am infact responding to RM because I am one of those said "far left 'whacko'"s. I see nothing wrong with it and I do not appreciate it, and if he's going to call me names I'm going to call him names. |
I wasn't calling you that--my intention was to call Michael Moore, MoveOn.org members, and other left-wingers out there that are far-left. I didn't mean that YOU are a whacko. As Theresa said, it was a general statement. You yourself are making yourself a far-left whacko, not me.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:47 pm |
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I am a far left winger, and by him calling them whacko he's calling me whacko. But whatever, lets just drop it.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:07 am |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Yes, I suppose the fact that he made a "documentary" on the subject just goes to show his absent mindedness. |
Fictional movies don't count. 
I can call Star Wars a "temporal documentary" but it doesn't make it one.
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:02 am |
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What does it matter if the movie is fiction or non? He still took the time to make it and thought it out. So he was thinking about 9/11. Can you please explain to me how if you're thinking about something you've forgotten it?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:08 pm |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | What does it matter if the movie is fiction or non? He still took the time to make it and thought it out. So he was thinking about 9/11. Can you please explain to me how if you're thinking about something you've forgotten it? |
He's forgotten what it was about, and what needs to be done. He's one of those people who essentially thinks that we should do NOTHING to combat the terrorists accept ENCOURAGE them to stop, forgetting what it meant, what needs to be done, and everything that comes with it. And btw, I don't really remember much about 9/11 in particular in his movie. It was mostly about Iraq.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:00 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Yes, I suppose the fact that he made a "documentary" on the subject just goes to show his absent mindedness. |
Fictional movies don't count.
I can call Star Wars a "temporal documentary" but it doesn't make it one. |
Thats why I put it in "quotes,"
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:47 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | He's forgotten what it was about, and what needs to be done. He's one of those people who essentially thinks that we should do NOTHING to combat the terrorists accept ENCOURAGE them to stop, forgetting what it meant, what needs to be done, and everything that comes with it. And btw, I don't really remember much about 9/11 in particular in his movie. It was mostly about Iraq. |
Bush would have forgotten about 9/11 if he couldn't use it to get re-elected.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:25 pm |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | Bush would have forgotten about 9/11 if he couldn't use it to get re-elected. |
Prove it.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Thats why I put it in "quotes," |
You are wise in all things. 
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:55 pm |
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why don't you prove how he wouldn't have?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:06 pm |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | why don't you prove how he wouldn't have? |
The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that he would have. He would NOT have. Definitely not.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:11 pm |
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Ok, back to intelligent discussion now.
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ILoveHarry
Admiral
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 7909
Location: Houston
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| Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:13 pm |
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OK. We all know I'm not necessarily the worlds biggest Bush fan... but I don't think any American, even Bush will soon forget 9/11.
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