| (Non US citizens only please) The USA: |
| Good |
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50% |
[ 5 ] |
| Good, but bad leader. |
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30% |
[ 3 ] |
| Undecided |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Bad |
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20% |
[ 2 ] |
| "Evil" |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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| Author |
Message |
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:11 am USA: Land of the Free, Home of the Evil? |
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| Quote: |
USA: Land of the Free, Home of the Evil?
Tuesday, July 20, 2004
SEATTLE � Evil � a word usually reserved for the likes of Adolph Hitler or Usama bin Laden � is now being used by more than a third of Canadian teens to describe the United States.
In a recent poll, 40 percent of Canadian teens said the United States is a force for evil in the world, with 50 percent saying it�s a force for good and 10 percent reporting they were undecided on the subject. French-Canadians (search) were even harsher, with 64 percent of them calling America a force for evil.
�What they�re reacting to is a sense that the U.S. is belligerent,� said the pollster who conducted the phone survey, Greg Lyle. �The U.S. is sort of bellicose, warmongering [and has] this sort of cowboy diplomacy.�
But former Canadian diplomat Martin Collacot (search) says the teens are responding to cues from their government, the media and their teachers.
The anti-Americanism from the United States' northern neighbors seemed to peak when the Iraq war started.
In one incident, hockey fans in Montreal booed during the playing of the American national anthem. Then-Prime Minister Jean Chretien�s spokesman was caught on mike calling President Bush a moron. And while the streets of Quebec (search) were filled with war protesters, a member of Parliament from the ruling Labor Party was quoted as saying: �Damn Americans. I hate those bastards.�
Click on the video box near the top of this story to watch a report by FOX News' Dan Springer.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:13 am |
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 Tssss, how rude, booed during the national anthem  . Oh well, I guess us damn American bastards are just gonna have to get used to it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:36 am |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Tssss, how rude, booed during the national anthem . Oh well, I guess us damn American bastards are just gonna have to get used to it. |
I watched this story presented on Fox News on TV. Yes, it's horrible. We're EVIL to many. What do you think about that? Propaganda, of course, is corrupting the teenagers, but this hatred from our neighbors is horrible.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:11 pm |
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I voted for good, but bad leader. Someone who wants to take away everyone's rights isn't a good leader for a western country.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:34 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | I voted for good, but bad leader. Someone who wants to take away everyone's rights isn't a good leader for a western country. |
It's a good thing that you're from Britain, but let me set you straight: Bush does NOT want to take away everyone's rights. Where the heck did you get that from? Yes, he supports the patriot act, but that does NOT take away everyone's rights. It just disposes of a few to DEFEND OUR COUNTRY. And it's not like World War II where we went after an entire group of people for this.
It's for people who we suspect are TERRORISTS.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:50 pm |
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Guantanamo Bay. These people weren't even arrested in the USA!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:55 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | Guantanamo Bay. These people weren't even arrested in the USA! |
Oh. Well, that has good reasons. They are suspected terrorists, and so they weren't arrested in the USA. It's better than getting attacked.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:56 pm |
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You are right, and they are not citizens, nor do they have visa's or passports, which means they do not hold any of the rights a US citizen has. They are extreme terrorists caught on the battle-feilds in Afghanistan and Iraq. Plus, I have seen images of Guantanamo, the new cells that they have built are very nice, and the prisoners are treated well.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:01 pm |
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Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:04 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | You are right, and they are not citizens, nor do they have visa's or passports, which means they do not hold any of the rights a US citizen has. They are extreme terrorists caught on the battle-feilds in Afghanistan and Iraq. Plus, I have seen images of Guantanamo, the new cells that they have built are very nice, and the prisoners are treated well. |
Exactly. Thank you for expanding upon my point.
If they are not citizens, then they do not have the rights of US citizens and, well, Janeway's got it.
| Quote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
It has NOT been proven that they have been tortured, but physical abuse--RESTRICTED abuse--is needed in order to save lives, btw, but I don't condone the Abu Grahaib actions, however. But they have NOT spent time in Taliban prisons in most cases because they SUPPORTED the Taliban and terrorism. And they should know why they've been held!
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:11 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Tsss, they know EXACTLY why they are being held. Not just anyone gets into Guantanamo Bay. However, I do agree with you on the fact that we should not just hold them in Guantanamo without being informed about anything. However, they are not at all tortured. Their new cells are air-conditioned, and they have a bed, and are given religious texts to read over. Each cell even has an arrow point towards Mecca so that they can pray towards the city. They can speak with people in the cell next to, or accross from them. Those who break the rules or something are sometimes placed in confinement, and there are interrogations, however, nothing that I beleive is to harsh on them.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:22 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Tsss, they know EXACTLY why they are being held. Not just anyone gets into Guantanamo Bay. However, I do agree with you on the fact that we should not just hold them in Guantanamo without being informed about anything. However, they are not at all tortured. Their new cells are air-conditioned, and they have a bed, and are given religious texts to read over. Each cell even has an arrow point towards Mecca so that they can pray towards the city. They can speak with people in the cell next to, or accross from them. Those who break the rules or something are sometimes placed in confinement, and there are interrogations, however, nothing that I beleive is to harsh on them. |
That's right!
And I now remember watching some of a story on FOX News' "Big Story Weekend" in which the host was the ONLY person from the media to be accepted into viewing it. They are treated SO WELL, it's almost sickening how well they are treated. Janeway got a lot of those things right--I just can't remember many more things, but it's not bad for them.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:10 pm |
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OK, so they're not US citizens. Therefore they should have the same rights as they would if held in their home country. The British detainees should have legal advice (free if their incomes are low), access to their families (I believe that two visits a month is normal for remand prisoners), access to phones, the ability to send and receive mail, and from the beginning the ability to complain about their treatment.
And even if this is not the case, they should at least be treated under international law, which has been broken in this case.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:32 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | OK, so they're not US citizens. Therefore they should have the same rights as they would if held in their home country. The British detainees should have legal advice (free if their incomes are low), access to their families (I believe that two visits a month is normal for remand prisoners), access to phones, the ability to send and receive mail, and from the beginning the ability to complain about their treatment.
And even if this is not the case, they should at least be treated under international law, which has been broken in this case. |
TERRORISTS do NOT deserve that great of treatment. They don't even deserve the Geneva treatment particularly because they didn't SIGN the treaty for it. They DO have very good things in the prison, but terrorists do not deserve those things that you listed. If you believe that, then Osama should be allowed the same treatement.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:43 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | OK, so they're not US citizens. Therefore they should have the same rights as they would if held in their home country. The British detainees should have legal advice (free if their incomes are low), access to their families (I believe that two visits a month is normal for remand prisoners), access to phones, the ability to send and receive mail, and from the beginning the ability to complain about their treatment.
And even if this is not the case, they should at least be treated under international law, which has been broken in this case. |
These are terrorists we are talking about here. The only right that you spoke of that they should have is legal advice.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:55 pm |
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I was listing the rights they would have if imprisoned here. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. They've not even been charged yet, so how can they be guilty?
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:17 pm |
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I'm not against America or anything, but I have to agree with Danni (Seven of Nine) here. Some of them are not terrorists, yet they are not allowed a trial to prove that they aren't. If they are terrorists, and America has the evidence to prove this, why don't they put them on trial? Something doesn't add up there. Presumably this means they don't have the evidence and so America should free them, not keep them there for two years. Yes, FOX news may have been allowed in, but if there was anything bad do you think the camera's would have been allowed to see it? I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying torture in some cases in wrong, but any information they got now would be way out of date.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:24 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | I'm not against America or anything, but I have to agree with Danni (Seven of Nine) here. Some of them are not terrorists, yet they are not allowed a trial to prove that they aren't. If they are terrorists, and America has the evidence to prove this, why don't they put them on trial? Something doesn't add up there. Presumably this means they don't have the evidence and so America should free them, not keep them there for two years. Yes, FOX news may have been allowed in, but if there was anything bad do you think the camera's would have been allowed to see it? I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying torture in some cases in wrong, but any information they got now would be way out of date. |
The vast majority of them ARE terrorists, and FOX would have detected something. We even got to see the cells of them--and some of the worst ones at that. And the information wouldn't necessarily be out of date.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:41 pm |
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So yall mean to tell me that being caught on the front lines fighting the US does not prove anything....that right there doesn't add up for me.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:56 am |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Torture?? Many released detainees have said that life in Guantanamo was the best life they've ever had (in comparison to living under the Taliban.)
They're treated well. Not every prison is Abu Ghraib.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:54 am |
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Im from the U.S. I hope its ok I post. I didn't pick a choice in the poll.
I know most other nations see us as tyrants and "cowboys". But the truth is we are not. I resepct everyone's opinion but its wrong. The truth of the matter is this is Vietnam all over again. U.S. declares war then everyone bends over mad about it. We become an evil institution. Although we are saving many lives over there. I know I know. But your also killing many people too! We are killing those who oppress thier own people. Vietnam was wrong but WW2 was ok right? Why because the other nations were getting massacered by the Germans and the Japanese and needed U.S. help? Why weren't people protesting as much as they do now back then?
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:25 am |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Torture?? Many released detainees have said that life in Guantanamo was the best life they've ever had (in comparison to living under the Taliban.)
They're treated well. Not every prison is Abu Ghraib. |
You obviously haven't listened to some of the detainees. And there are many different forms of torture, psychological being one of them.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:48 am |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | So yall mean to tell me that being caught on the front lines fighting the US does not prove anything....that right there doesn't add up for me. |
As Danni (Seven of Nine) has pointed out, some of them were actually taken from prisons that the Taliban controlled. Let me make it clear, I'm not condemning all of the people being kept there. If they are guilty, keep them there by all means. It's the fact they haven't had a trial to prove they are all guilty.
| Republican Man wrote: | | The vast majority of them ARE terrorists, and FOX would have detected something. We even got to see the cells of them--and some of the worst ones at that. And the information wouldn't necessarily be out of date. |
Em, what information are they wanting that will still be relevant after 2 years? Planned Terrorist attacks? Somehow I think they might have changed the plans or cancelled the attack. A lot of the time the media will pick stuff up, but they might have been banned from showing something they had picked up, as the government can do that. Or they might have been kept far away from certain areas. I'm not saying it is like this, but you cannot believe everything the media says or doesn't say.
| Founder wrote: | | I know most other nations see us as tyrants and "cowboys". But the truth is we are not. I resepct everyone's opinion but its wrong. The truth of the matter is this is Vietnam all over again. U.S. declares war then everyone bends over mad about it. We become an evil institution. Although we are saving many lives over there. I know I know. But your also killing many people too! We are killing those who oppress thier own people. Vietnam was wrong but WW2 was ok right? Why because the other nations were getting massacered by the Germans and the Japanese and needed U.S. help? Why weren't people protesting as much as they do now back then? |
If America is wanting to help people to be nice why aren't they doing anything in Sudan now then? Britain might be, but doesn't really have enough troops to as they are all elsewhere. If it's just human rights they care about it doesn't seem that way to me. I wasn't against the Iraqi war, but it's getting a bit suspect now.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:52 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Torture?? Many released detainees have said that life in Guantanamo was the best life they've ever had (in comparison to living under the Taliban.)
They're treated well. Not every prison is Abu Ghraib. |
Exactly. And Abu Ghraib was abuse, not torture.
| Founder wrote: | Im from the U.S. I hope its ok I post. I didn't pick a choice in the poll.
I know most other nations see us as tyrants and "cowboys". But the truth is we are not. I resepct everyone's opinion but its wrong. The truth of the matter is this is Vietnam all over again. U.S. declares war then everyone bends over mad about it. We become an evil institution. Although we are saving many lives over there. I know I know. But your also killing many people too! We are killing those who oppress thier own people. Vietnam was wrong but WW2 was ok right? Why because the other nations were getting massacered by the Germans and the Japanese and needed U.S. help? Why weren't people protesting as much as they do now back then? |
Yes, it's okay that you post. I'm from the US, so is Janeway, and so are most other people posting here.
I agree with some of what you are saying there, founder. We are NOT tyrants and "cowboys." What I disagree with you is that this is not Vietnam all over again. Well, I guess that in a sense it is--we go into war for our own interests--for DEFENSE and it's wrong, but when we go to help France or a country like that out, it's good. Hmmm... And yes, why weren't people protesting as much as they do now back then?
| Seven of Nine wrote: | | LightningBoy wrote: | | Seven of Nine wrote: | | Extreme terrorists that have spent time in Taliban prisons? If they were charged originally, my views would be different, but over 2 years of torture, no access to legal advice, no idea why they've been held? They have less rights than the Iraqis had under Saddam! |
Torture?? Many released detainees have said that life in Guantanamo was the best life they've ever had (in comparison to living under the Taliban.)
They're treated well. Not every prison is Abu Ghraib. |
You obviously haven't listened to some of the detainees. And there are many different forms of torture, psychological being one of them. |
Well, yes, that is true about psychological torture, but it is GREAT there. A lot better than YOU'VE been listening too, Seven. "Many released detainees have said that life in Guantanamo was the best they've ever had"!! HE was listening--so have I.
Plus, you NEED to use harsh tecniques inorder to get responses and to SAVE LIVES. I don't condone torture, but still.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:26 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | JanewayIsHott wrote: | | So yall mean to tell me that being caught on the front lines fighting the US does not prove anything....that right there doesn't add up for me. |
As Danni (Seven of Nine) has pointed out, some of them were actually taken from prisons that the Taliban controlled. Let me make it clear, I'm not condemning all of the people being kept there. If they are guilty, keep them there by all means. It's the fact they haven't had a trial to prove they are all guilty.
Terrorists don't necessarily deserve trials, and they aren't US citizens, so they don't have the same rights as US citizens. And there are few there that aren't guilty. Plus, why would they be caught in the midst of battle anyways?
| Republican Man wrote: | | The vast majority of them ARE terrorists, and FOX would have detected something. We even got to see the cells of them--and some of the worst ones at that. And the information wouldn't necessarily be out of date. |
Em, what information are they wanting that will still be relevant after 2 years? Planned Terrorist attacks? Somehow I think they might have changed the plans or cancelled the attack. A lot of the time the media will pick stuff up, but they might have been banned from showing something they had picked up, as the government can do that. Or they might have been kept far away from certain areas. I'm not saying it is like this, but you cannot believe everything the media says or doesn't say.
They showed most of it. And the reporter would have been able to tell SOMETHING. And I do NOT believe everything the media says or doesn't say. But in this case I believe it. And I SAW the footage!
| Founder wrote: | | I know most other nations see us as tyrants and "cowboys". But the truth is we are not. I resepct everyone's opinion but its wrong. The truth of the matter is this is Vietnam all over again. U.S. declares war then everyone bends over mad about it. We become an evil institution. Although we are saving many lives over there. I know I know. But your also killing many people too! We are killing those who oppress thier own people. Vietnam was wrong but WW2 was ok right? Why because the other nations were getting massacered by the Germans and the Japanese and needed U.S. help? Why weren't people protesting as much as they do now back then? |
If America is wanting to help people to be nice why aren't they doing anything in Sudan now then? Britain might be, but doesn't really have enough troops to as they are all elsewhere. If it's just human rights they care about it doesn't seem that way to me. I wasn't against the Iraqi war, but it's getting a bit suspect now. |
No, our reason for going to the Iraq War was primarily to protect our country but also for humanitarian means and counterterrorism means. Plus, we would not be ABLE to go in Sudan now unless we had great reason too.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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